Author Topic: Model 20 pictures  (Read 698 times)

salmonfishing

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Model 20 pictures
« on: February 08, 2017, 01:29:06 PM »
Here are pictures of two Model 20 Sidewinders. The reason for showing both is that there are a couple of differences between them even though they are the same Model. This Model continued the same crude drag system which was used on the Model 10A which was a tightening of a screw on the back which puts pressure on the line spool to slow it down while holding the handle stationary. I have not taken the drive shaft mechanism apart to see what is on the inside of the drag mechanism behind the line spool. In the first picture you can see that the drag screw knob on the right is smaller than the drag screw knob on the the left reel. It appears the smaller drag screw knob and housing is the same size as the one on a Model 10A which I have and compared it to. In addition you can see that the vent hole in the right reel is a circle while the vent hole on the left one is oblong. While I have no way of knowing I am guessing the right reel was made before the version on the left. It appears they enlarged the drag screw knob  to make it easier to turn as well as enlarged the vent to allow that to function better. Also while it is hard to see in the picture the slotted heads of the line release push buttons are also different. The one on the right is smooth around the head edge while the one on the right has ribs around its edge. I assume to better hold that when taking the nut off of the pickup rotor. Maybe a third improvement between these versions. In the second and third pictures you can see there is no difference in the front cover or the outside of the rotors. The last picture shows the pickup pin mounted with the spring to the left in one reel and to the right in the other. Not sure why or if that makes any difference. I can't see that it does. You can also see that the metal used appears to have changed on the drive shaft housing and components from one reel to the other. Finally one thing I learned about mounting the rotor to the drive shaft. The drive shaft is round where the rotor attaches. The rotor turns when cranking the handle but make sure the tab on the rotor is inserted between the two tab/prongs on the shaft housing component. You can see in the picture the rotor attaches using a washer and a nut. The reel on the left came with the washer placed on the shaft first, then the rotor and then the nut. The reel on the right came with the washer placed on the outside of the rotor  and then the nut. You can see in the picture of the reel on the right that by doing it that way the tab on the rotor dragged on the line spool when being turned creating a circular mark. I am guessing a previous owner of the reel put it back together that way. I think the intention of Johnson  was to have the washer installed on the shaft before the rotor to create separation so the tab would not drag on the line spool like what happened on the reel on the right. Finally an interesting thing to me is if you look the name Johnson on both reels you will see that the two "n"s are not in upper case letters but lower case. That is a departure from the Model 10A reel that has upper case N in the name imprinted on it. I have no idea why they changed but looking at other reels, you will see that variation also. Some with upper case N and some with the lower case n. On all of the various reel boxes I have, the name is spelled with all lower case letters except for the J. Another name identification variation. Fun stuff!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:42:52 AM by salmonfishing »

PatrickZ

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 07:09:27 PM »
Nice reels! The Model 60 that I just acquired had the washer on the outside of the rotor as well and made a knocking sound with each revolution.  I reversed as you did, and it works properly now.

PatrickZ

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 07:13:18 PM »
I have the schematics for this reel if you need it.  The drag is a little more sophisticated than you describe as the screw acts upon a drag shoe.

salmonfishing

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 07:31:21 PM »
I would love the schematics! Can you post on this site? One of the reasons I hesitated to take the drive shaft and components apart was afraid of screwing something up. I would love to look at the internal drag components. Do you also  have schematics for a Model 10A?Thanks!

PatrickZ

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 08:57:56 AM »
I should have looked more closely at our own site, they are already uploaded under pre-1970s in the schematics folder.  It is the same Replacement Parts List as mine.  It starts with the Model 20 (no 10A, sorry) and ends with the cursive script Citation 110B.

salmonfishing

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 09:24:27 AM »
Great! Got it. Glad Huckster37 posted those. I didn't realize they were there. Thanks.

salmonfishing

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 10:17:05 AM »
After reviewing the parts schematic Huckster37 posted, I took one of these  reels further apart. I did not undo the drag adjustment screw from the drag shoe as I wasn't sure I would be able to easily get it threaded back into the very small nut. But in the picture you can see the aluminum drag shoe  when the drag adjustment nut is adjusted can tighten against the line spool. Metal against metal it appears.

PatrickZ

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 11:51:18 AM »
Thanks for the photograph of the parts breakdown.  I wonder if a thin coat of something like Shimano's drag grease would help? 

salmonfishing

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 01:14:09 PM »
It doesn't look like any lubricant was ever on the drag shoe. So since I am going to just look at it and not use it. I will leave it as is. The one I took apart was the one with the round vent holes and I think the older version of the two. I actually took the other one I have apart this afternoon and found another upgrade to it.  Also noticed there was no lubricant evidence at all on the drag shoe on this one either. Not only did they enlarge the vent holes, enlarge the drag adjustment nut and change the metal used for the bearing (P) and bearing spacer (k), they also in this version added a bearing spacer washer which is part GG on the Model 40 schematics and not shown on the Model 20 schematics. I was surprised when I saw it inside the drag shoe. So I think the one with the oblong vent was a later produced version Model 20 right before they started the Model 40. I have a 40 which I will tear apart to see what it looks like inside and post those pics.

Bill

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 03:49:45 PM »
Hope I'm not sticking my nose in to a private topic! But after reading your post on the model 20's, it made me think of my Sidewinders and my model 20 doesn't have either round or long holes like yours do.My brass washer is also on the top of the rotor under the nut.

Bill

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 03:58:21 PM »
Sorry to be a bother again, but there is an advertisement to site for Sidewinders and it says that they used a Elcro-lube process and that No lubrication is ever required.

salmonfishing

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 04:02:33 PM »
Bill, certainly not a private topic. The more the merrier and the more is learned about these reels. Would be interested in seeing pictures of yours if you would care to post. Maybe yet another version of a Model 20. The model 10A I have doesn't have vent holes so maybe yours is a very first 20 version without holes and as they continued to manufacture they changed the reel.  Looking at schematics I can't tell for sure where washer is to go. But I do know if I put it on the shaft before the rotor goes on, neither scrap the line spool. Also I am curious as to what other Sidewinder Models you have?
Chuck

PatrickZ

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Re: Model 20 pictures
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 06:50:26 PM »
Yes, I have also seen the ads/manuals that mention the Electro-lube never needing oil.  Johnson also stated that the later spincasts with oilite driveshaft bearings didn't need oil either.  My experience has been that after all of these years a little oil helps considerably on the drive shaft and won't hurt the bearings (I have read that grease will clog the pores of the oilite bushings though).   In this case, I agree with leaving the drag shoe alone, especially if I wasn't going to fish it.  I usually want to try out each of the models in my collection, though!